Illegal Immigration Bites Another Candidate

So Mrs. Clinton has a weak spot after all. She stumbled badly in Monday night's debate over the question of whether she supported Gov. Spitzer's move to grant driver licenses to illegal immigrants in New York State. After first supporting the governor's actions, she backed away a couple of minutes later when pressed on the issue.

A day later she must have been reminded of the party line. Her campaign staff released this statement:

Senator Clinton supports governors like Governor Spitzer who believe they need such a measure to deal with the crisis caused by this administration’s failure to pass comprehensive immigration reform.

The problem is that Mrs. Clinton's position--like that of most of the other candidates--is chock-full of contradictions. How exactly would granting illegal immigrants a driver licence "deal with the crisis caused by failing to pass comprehensive immigration reform"? Wouldn't giving illegal immigrants additional privileges and rights simply encourage more illegal immigration? Wouldn't it encourage more fraud at the voting booth? Doesn't the whole process make a mockery of the legal immigration system?

Is it too much to ask for these candidates to think about the immigration issue for more than just a few minutes and recognize that all the pieces in this very complicated jigsaw puzzle are inextricably linked?

Comments

[Abe]

Writing as a progressive - an old fashioned progressive that is in favor of an egalitarian society with high and growing wages for the unskilled and disadvantaged, I am very unhappy with Mrs. Clinton.

Mrs. Clinton, i appeal to you to look at the facts

1. Employers in general prefer to hire unskilled immigrant men over african american men for many reasons.

2. A restaurant owner or construction manager will thus not reach out to unskilled african americans unless there is a severe shortage of unskilled labor

3. In situations where there are no unskilled immigrants available, hiring managers aggressively can and do go in to the neighborhoods where african americans live and recruit them

4. In situations of especially dire labor shortage, employers will aggressively recruit even those african americans getting out of prison on drug charges.
And even recruit African americans with particularly severe skill deficits.

There is another aspect to this. In conditions of a severe labor shortage employers tend to treat their workers with respect. They listen more. They make the work environment safer and more pleasant. All human relationships are better when employer and employee are on a more equal footing

When thousands of unskilled immigrant workers are flooding in, the humanity of the relationship melts away. The employer acts in a slightly more cruel and arbitrary manner. With a surplus of unskilled labor available, injustices and cruelties, both subtle and unsubtle, build up.

I am concerned that Mrs. Clinton has not spent time with enough african american workers whose employers consider them to be interchangable cogs in a wheel since there are thousands of desperate immigrants ready and willing to do the job.

Instead, Mrs. Clinton is spending her time with CEOs, Surgeons, and Investment bankers. People who make a lot of money and consider themselves "progressive"

I wish that Mrs. Clinton was aware of the fact that in parts of the usa with no unskilled immigration ceos surgeons and i bankers pay their nannies, gardeners, and housekeepers a living wage and in places with a ton of unskilled immigrants flooding in they do not. Even the "progressive" surgeons and such somehow forget to let their progressive politics extend to their own employment relationships.

It is so convenient for wealthy progressives like Mrs. Clinton to feel like good generous people when they flood the nation with unskilled immigrants. Isn't it a happy coincidence she must be thinking, that these same kind humane progressive policies allow her and her friends to hire docile, uncomplaining servants at low wages.

Where are the progressives who care about a just society? Where are the progressives that want the most unskilled and downtrodden of our nation's unskilled young african american men to be given an chance?

Why can't those who have dedicated their life to building a just society for african americans and others in this nation rise up and call Mrs. Clinton and others like her to account?

[Peter Schaeffer]

I think they do spend quite a bit of time on immigration and they are quite aware of the linkages. However, the Democrats (and several Republicans) want to avoid the subject as much as possible.

The Democrats are smart enough to know that this is a major losing issue for them (ask Gray Davis or Cruz Bustamente) if it becomes a major issue in the general election.

Why should they articulate a well-considered plan for dealing with immigration (legal and illegal) when it will be used against them? There is no upside for the Democrats on this issue and they know it. Better to respond minimally and tactically and hope that they aren’t confronted over immigration.

Of course, if Giuliani, Huckabee, or McCain is the Republican candidate, they won’t be because GH&M are strongly pro-Amnesty. Even Romney is unlikely to make it a major issue (in my opinion).

A related point is that many Democrats are very upset of illegal immigration. At the grass roots level, the issue is strikingly non-partisan (based on the Rasmussen polling data). Why upset Democratic voters and give them a reason to stay home?

[T2]

Abe - excellent questions. I have no answers. I especially look at african american leaders and union leaders and see that they put prestige, power, money ahead of african american men who need their voices and support.

[Coyote99]

Illegal immigration is going to be a key voting issue, whether the candidates feel comfortable with it or not. They'd better figure out where they stand because, as the Clinton debate debacle made clear, they can't continue to successfully claim they're on both sides of the issue.

[alex]

Abe: In situations where there are no unskilled immigrants available, hiring managers aggressively can and do go in to the neighborhoods where african americans live and recruit them

A classic example of this is WWI. With immigration at a trickle and lots of industrial work, Northern factory managers sent employment agents South to recruit black people.

Their line to white Southerners was that they should be happy that Northerners were helping to reduce their "Negro problem". Of course many white Southerners realized that their cheap labor supply was being taken away, and some Yankee agents barely escaped being tarred and feathered.

It's amazing how a reduced labor supply causes potential employers to discard their old prejudices.

In WWII, of course, the same thing happened with women.

[Abe]

I wasn't aware of that - thank you - here is another example

An immigration raid aids blacks for a time
Wednesday, January 17, 2007
By Evan Perez and Corey Dade, The Wall Street Journal
STILLMORE, Ga. -- After a wave of raids by federal immigration agents on Labor Day weekend, a local chicken-processing company called Crider Inc. lost 75 percent of its mostly Hispanic 900-member work force. The crackdown threatened to cripple the economic anchor of this fading rural town.

But for local African-Americans, the dramatic appearance of federal agents presented an unexpected opportunity. Crider suddenly raised pay at the plant. An advertisement in the weekly Forest-Blade newspaper blared "Increased Wages" at Crider, starting at $7 to $9 an hour -- more than a dollar above what the company had paid many immigrant workers. The company began offering free transportation from nearby towns and free rooms in a company-owned dormitory near to the plant. For the first time in years, local officials say, Crider aggressively sought workers from the area's state-funded employment office -- a key avenue for low-skilled workers to find jobs. Of 400 candidates sent to Crider -- most of them black -- the plant hired about 200.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07017/754517-28.stm

[Abe]

Here is a truly heartwarming story from the AP. We all know that our society needs to do its best to re absorb the homeless and those getting out of prison. With tons of undocumented workers around, private companies have little incentive to do the hard work of helping the homeless and those getting out of prison. But by simply reducing the supply of undocumented workers, we as a society can get the private employers to take up a small part of this burden for us. In a society with a labor shortage, employers reach out to those the previously ignored.

Felons, homeless men fill poultry plant jobs
Posted 11/26/2006 10:13 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print |

The Associated Press
STILLMORE, Ga. — A south Georgia poultry plant is busing in felons on probation and homeless men to fill jobs left vacant when federal immigration agents arrested illegal Mexican immigrants in raids two months ago.
Each day, about 40 convicted felons from the Macon Diversion Center are bused in to work at the Crider Poultry plant here. Sixteen men from the Garden City Rescue Mission in Augusta have worked in the plant, and the mission is looking to send more.

Crider President David Purtle said that's just a drop in the bucket for a plant operating at 450 employees, less than half of the 1,000 workers there before the raid.

To fill the gap, Crider also has been outsourcing jobs in its raw deboning plant to Alabama, has raised wages to attract new workers and has turned to an outside company to hire about 100 cleaning workers.

[Dee]

Hillary Clinton, our next President, was a beacon of light on the stage Tuesday evening. In the midst of the political debate, through the onslought of slings and arrows, the "gotcha" question was asked.

Tim Russert, frothing at the mouth to be the pundit that finally "got her" disobeyed the "Lightning Round" format repeated by his partner Brian Williams, several times throughout the evening.
Even though Hillary answered the question intelligently, even though Dodd, the weakest and lowest scoring candidate lied about her answer to the question and began his attack on her, Russert, still frothing, continued his attack.

Hillary is tough and swiftly took on all of her naysayers. She is a strong and able future President. Of course now, all of the nutcases like Limbaugh, Dobbs and Tancredo are continuing the attack. What do you expect.

Russert´s Question: "You said Gov Spitzer´s plan make a lot of sense..."

Hillary´s Answer: "What Gov Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum of the failure by this Administration to pass Comprehensive Immigration Reform. I believe we need to get back to Comprehensive Immigration Reform." (She said it made sense given the circumstances, not that she supported it nor was it the ideal solution.)

Had I been Hillary, when Dodd attacked, I would have added, "Are you advocating Mass Deportation of the 12M? If not, then you are just like the current Administration. They continue to partner with Business to bring in and employ these workers. You are content to live in a Political Hypocrisy, let the 12M live in the shadows, drive on our roads, invisible and without identity. That is the true double speak that continues to thrive in our current administration and which you apparently are supporting.

Our economy cannot withstand the Mass Deportation of 12M people. I ask anyone, anyone in Congress or any legitimate economist to prove otherwise. If you do not advocate Mass Deportation, then you need to say so, forthrightly. It is time we bring the 12M out of the shadows. We need Comprehensive Immigration Reform."

Hillary will survive and continue to be strong through to election time. She can expect continued attacks. She is a strong person. The next time someone asks her the question, she should ask the question, "Are you advocating Mass Deportation of the 12M?" Asked and Answered.

[D Flinchum]

And when asked such a question any candidate with a grain of intelligence will say "We don't need massive deportations by force. Simply enforce the laws against hiring illegal aliens and deny them services and they will self-deport aka go home. It will take a while for this to take place; but, face it, we didn't get into this mess overnight and we won't get out of it overnight either."

Recently the state of OK passed laws doing just what I mentioned above. The result is that illegal aliens are leaving by the thousands. Same thing in Prince William County, VA. Attrition through enforcement works. What we need is to make it a NATIONAL policy.

And any candidate, including Hillary, who discounts how angry people are over this issue does so at their peril.

[MDT]

There you go D Flinchum,

Looks like her campaign is here commenting - words (deport 12 m, etc) sounds right out of the book.

[Dee]

Flinchum, That is a typical response the Administration would provide. It is very weak. Do you really believe the rates are going down, even in Oklahoma? Don´t kid yourself. Self Deport doesn´t work. Mass Deportation will not work. We do need comprehensive immigration reform.

[Dee]

MDT, You flatter me. I am not a member of Hillary´s campaign staff. My how the RNC minimizes her effectiveness.

I am a blogger and frequent commenter on Dr. B´s blog.

My Blog: Immigration Talk with a Mexican American

Where you and the RNC will fail is not realizing the numbers and growth of we grass roots Americans, particularly in the Hispanic Community.

We are truly the sleeping Giant. Most of you minimumize our numbers, our intelligence and our strength.

Visit my blog sometime and see for yourself.

[Gary]

Dee - What you missed is that the question that Sen. Clinton was asked was what she thought of the Gov. Spitzer's proposal. It was not a question about CIR. I deal with this sort of thing all the time with my teenage stepdaughter; I ask a question, she gives me an answer to a question I did not ask, and I have to go through the "that's not what I asked you" routine. This is to be expected from an 18 year old, but when a 60 year old woman does it, that suggests to me that (a) she lacks good listening skills, (b) she's stupid (which is doubtful), or (c) she's dishonest. I personally think it's some combination of (a) and (c).

Now, as to your point about the failings of the RNC, actually, Pres. Bush installed an open-borders guy as head of the RNC (Mel Martinez, since departed). The leadership of both parties are more or less in agreement on immigration, as well as a lot of other issues, but neither side will ever admit that, because doing so would expose the real divide in America, i.e. the elite establishment (incl. political, big business, media, religious, labor, and education interests) vs. the people. Immigration is only one issue, but when you have George Bush, John McCain, Ted Kennedy, George Soros, and Roger Mahony all in agreement you can be sure that something is rotten. If the voting public ever figures this out, the political earthquake that will result will be cataclysmic.

[MDT]

So now the numbers, our intelligence and strength of Hispanic community means laws should not apply to them. What about Chinese American community - they have the qualities as do many other - why should they not be allowed in and stay without any controls?
Simple logic fails here.

[Dee]

Gary, You misunderstand your daughter and you misunderstand Hillary.

Let´s start with your daughter. Your daughter is very smart. Make no mistake, neither she nor Hillary are stupid. Your daughter knows you. When you ask her a question, she is actively listening and interpreting your motivation for asking. She is then picturing her 1st response, your anticipated reaction, then her response to your reaction. Within mere seconds she is already on the fourth or fifth scenario. You sir, as your daughter and I both understand, are still stuck on 1.

Now to Hillary, if you understand the entire Immigration issue and history of Immigration and our current status, then you know how complex this issue is. Russert was asking a WHY question. Why did you say Spitzer´s Policy made sense. It required a Why answer. She responded appropriately. It just took actively listening to understand the answer. Those on the panel were not seeking to understand. They were seeking to "gotcha."

You sir, are also stuck on 1. when it comes to Immigration Solutions. You think every Immigration Reform is Amnesty and you refuse to listen to anyone but your own crowd.

[Dee]

MDT, How reactionary. No one said to single out the Chinese American community.

I think your side generally terms anyone other than Mexican as OTMs. Understand the OTMs are much more actively involved in this discussion than you realize.

I have an interesting aside here. My niece works in a Detention center in TX. She said when the Chinese "illegals" come in, they always have $3000 in their pockets. $3000 is the cost of the bond, so they are immediately released and do not show up for court dates.

The Latino "illegals" never have money. They are remanded to the Detention Centers and stay until their court date, then stay much longer. They have to stay until a certain number of "illegals" from their country go to court-date so they can be deported en masse. Supposedly for cost purposes.

The Detention Centers are deplorable places. I predict when history records all of what is happening, this will be regarded similarly to the Japanese Internment Camps and our grandchildren will ask us, "How did you let this go on?"

[abe]

The answer is to put the *employers* in to detention.

A candidate promising to put rich employers of illegals in to prison to serve some hard time will, i predict, capture many votes.

The working men and women of both parties would like to see these employers suffering for their crimes. In fact, the large fines paid by employers can be used to assist undocumented workers in making the trip home in a kind, careful way.

The storyline that resonates with Americans is that of well meaning, upstanding undocumented workers exploited by the rich. That storyline will attract a wide audience and can be used to build a coalition.

Any sort of cruelty to the undocumented undermines the cause of creating a tight labor market.

[Gary]

Well, actually Dee without realizing it you've made my point about Hillary and her lack of honesty, by pointing to my 18 year old's behavior.

Look, if you have to picture 4 or 5 different scenarios and someone's reaction to each one of them before you answer a question, then it's just obvious that your intention is to deceive. No one who is going to answer a question honestly needs to picture all the scenarios and someone's reaction to them before answering, I don't care who you are. You may think I'm dumb or unsophisticated or don't appreciate nuance, but I have no use for people who are dishonest.

And while we're at it, let's dispense with this notion that immigration is a "complex" issue. No, it isn't - building a nuclear submarine is complex. Deciding how many people we let in as immigrants, where they should come from, and what we do with those who don't belong isn't, it's WAY down the complexity scale. This idea that issues are "complex" is bogus, most things are pretty simple actually, and I'm not talking in terms of right and wrong, I'm talking in terms of common sense and what works and doesn't work. Just my opinion, but allowing large scale, largely unsupervised immigration from a pool that could be fairly described as low skill and poorly educated strikes me as not meeting the common sense test.

[Dee]

Actually Gary, I am talking about the differences between Old School Men (such as you) and people who live in the current generation.

We live in a fast paced, multi media society. I have an iphone, lap top, VO, earbud, multi tasking mentality, as your daughter has and as most people have in this current e-generation. I can study, research, talk on the phone, watch the latest podcast and get back to you in one minute or less.

Do you print out your email or documents before you read them? Or do you have your secretary print them out for you?

The Immigration debate has hundreds, thousands of scenarios and it is extremely complex. Ask Dr. B. And you are troubled by considering 4 or 5? Come on, man.

Your reaction to today´s fast paced dynamics is typical of the RNC and your side. The only response you can think of is "oh you must be dishonest or deceiving." Sad!

You are so out of touch. I feel very sorry for you!

Hillary, your daughter and I are honest people. We are the True Americans living in our multi tasking fast paced society.

Gary, I mean this from my heart. Catch up!!

[D Flinchum]

Wrong, Dee. They are leaving. En masse.

And while we are at it, I have probably voted 95% Democratic in my nearly 40 years of voting but will vote on the immigration issue from now on. It affects so many other issues.

And I find the administration's position to be ridiculous. Both Dem's and Rep's are wanting open borders. Not me and not most US citizens.

[Gary]

Dee, you're absolutely right...I'm just hopelessly old school, a real Luddite. You know, it's a wonder I can work the keyboard and mouse, what with my knuckles dragging on the floor. Now, you'll have to excuse me, I gotta get back to the trailer park.

[Dee]

D Flinchum,
Not Open Borders. Not Illegal. We want Comprehensive Immigration Reform, including Secure Borders and Employer Sanctions.

[Dee]

Gary,
I do like your sense of humor!

[abe]

Throw some employers in prison. Other employers of the undocumented will take note. They will terminate the undocumented workers they have and replace them with african americans at a living wage. Why is this formula so hard for poeple to accept? It has played out again and again.

This nation was built on wages that increased with each generation.

We have the power to return to that

[D Flinchum]

"We want Comprehensive Immigration Reform, including Secure Borders and Employer Sanctions."

So you say. Well we had that back in 1986. What's more I supported it wholeheartedly. Grant amnesty to 1.2 million illegal aliens and in return get secure borders and strict enforcement so that we never have that many again. What's not to like? The problem is that we got amnesty for nearly 3 million illegal aliens and their relatives plus massive fraud, and are STILL waiting for enforcement. "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" is nothing more than another amnesty, increased legal immigration, guest worker programs, all full of massive fraud with yet another PROMISE of enforcement and secure borders later, maybe, some day, much later when the technology is there, whatever.

If I made a business deal in which I would provide something of value to XYZ after which XYZ would provide something of value to me, and XYZ reneged on its promise after I made good on mine, I'd never do business in that manner with XYZ again. Nor would any intelligent person. Show me the enforcement - NOW! Once that's working, we can discuss guest worker programs, etc, but not before.

The problem is that you can't repeal people once you make them legal. You can raise or lower taxes, get into and out of war, start or abolish programs, but you can't go back to people granted the legal right to stay in the US and say, "I made a mistake. Go home." I will not accept another amnesty. It simply draws more illegal aliens to the US where they wait for the NEXT amnesty.

Dee, I don't know if you are with HRC's campaign or not. It doesn't matter to me. I worked in Democratic Party politics for decades. But one thing I do know: I am probably to the left of 90% of Congress and if the Democrats are losing people like me over the issue of immigration, they have a problem. I don't have to come out and vote for Rudy or Mitt or Fred. I just have to not vote. I suggest that you turn off your gizmos and start talking to some real people for a change. You might be surprised what you'll learn.